Often cited as the last verified American POW from the Vietnam War, Garwood was taken to North Vietnam in 1969, and reportedly was released in 1973 along with the other U.S. POWs as part of the Paris Peace Accords. My brother claims he is a Vietnam veteran. Nov.62 I got off a PanAm flight at Tan Son Nhut with a US passport, wearing civilian clothes and colorful floral leis around my neck after a stop in Hawaii. While every GI serving around the world was important to securing our Cold War victory over Communism just as the Vietnam conflict was also, those who served in uniform in the SEA War Theater are the true veterans of the Vietnam War. Only military remaining were Marines at the Embassy. I am a Proud US Army Veteran retired in 1984. ARP. but i was happy to serve. it was printed in the ny times and cherries writer. Yes. War is Heck!!! I wouldnt trust the New York Times study, regardless of their Sources! Clearly, the New York Times is referring to Vietnam-era veterans, not Vietnam veterans. My demons were better left alone and buried away after two tours back to back. While there troops from our unit were deployed to Vietnam as replacements yet some people dont consider us as support for troops in Vietnam. 101st Airborne Division 69-70 Im now 74. Apparently, its been agreed upon that 800,000 Vietnam veterans had passed away by the year 2000. Eight Vietnam Veterans Die every day. Having spent a year all over Thailand in support of Communist Suppression Operations Center along the Laotian border, and training Thai infantry to deploy in RVN. three years on and off in vietnam . No, Wildaboro was gone, and AK-47s and B-40 rockets were sapper armaments Later, I read in a letter that Sp.4 Donnon F. Porier grabbed the M-60 machinegun, risking his life, and ran down the hillside rushing to the ambush site. Born in 1953, he joined the US Marine Corps at the age of 15 and was sent to Vietnam where he served as a machine gunner. I WOULD SURVIVE! The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs estimates that 530 Vietnam veterans die every day. Mekong Delta US Army 1969. Next determined those Veterans who were awarded the Vietnam Service ribbon. More than 300,000 Veterans were wounded during the Vietnam War. Advertisement cookies are used to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns. Another 2,000,000 were in country but worked supply or support [based on 10% rule]. for the sake being more realistic, I served from June 1962 to April 20 1970, and was always told it will vary from 1 in 7 to 1 in 10. ho, i could not . 499 days, and 10 days in Sydney, Australia !!!!! Aside from that, I have always doubted any fact stated by the NY Times; although the federal government is no better. The report is based on national death certificate data currently available through 2020. How many Vietnam vets die each day? - nobelvoice.com Dr. Paul A. Scipione OUR COMPANY STARTED LONG BINH COMPOUND IN SEPT OF 1965, DALLAS WATERFILL EMAIL dallaswaterfill@yahoo.com, Was in Vietnam Dec. 1968 to Dec. 1969, Phan Rang AFB, RVN. i was a merchant marine officer, technically a civilian. It is called the Stolen Valor Act., Dau Tieng A Co. 3/22 Inf. My number one issue is running into a FAKE. Not affiliated with any government agencies.All Rights Reserved. Vietnam era vets are not the same as Vietnam vets, but they are important. Posted in these groups: Vietnam War American History Posted >1 y ago Just a minor clarification, not all of us were on the groundJust being picky. Divarty (how ironic), and with my DEROS (Date I returned to the States) in the end of May boarding The BIG Bird, flying across the Pond and back to the World! Does Ohio State University Allow Pets In Dorms? Why all this devisiveness. Nha Trang (TET 68), I was with the 1st Inf Division from July 67 to June 68 and we received $15 overseas pay and $65 combat pay a month. I have VSM on my DD215 which deleted the AFEM on my DD214. The average age of our Vietnam veterans is now over 70. It was an incredibly tumultuous time in US history and, for that reason, its unclear how many people actually served during this struggle. The VA conducts the largest national analysis of Veteran suicide rates each year. Do I count as one or three Vietnam Veterans? He never did ,Thank god ,because I ended up marrying a beautiful woman and we have the most precious and beautiful daughter. Today, the state with highest number of Vietnam veterans is California, with 596,130, followed by Florida with 519,224. Each averaged 2500-3000 personnel on a yearly rotating bases, groaning and shrinking based on the missions being conducted. in only 6-10 years.. . Our med company was on 6 different LZs during the year I was with them, supporting the 3rd Bde 4th ID. The VA sent out a news release on March 29th, 2022, entitled DISABILITY COMPENSATION AND BENEFITS AVAILABLE TO VIETNAM WAR VETERANS. It included the following line, which should put this question to rest. Canada did not enter the war so many Canadians joined the americansThey wanted to put a memorial in Ottawa and were refused the built it someplace on the Canadian side I beieve near Detroit, The monument is on the Canadian side of the Detroit River (Windsor). I knew that I was gravely wounded, and bullets were kicking up dust clouds as they were landing around my feet. If you were shot at, in an incoming rocket attack, had to protect during a ground attack, you could bleed and die, you were in Combat. (LogOut/ The exact percentage of surviving Vietnam War veterans is not known, but it is estimated to be around 25% of the total number of veterans who served during the war. Pleiku, Dak To, An Khe. Anyone suggesting that only a CIB award means you were a combat veteran is very uninformed The Battle of Soui Tre March 21, 1967 the men of the 2/77 Artillery were every bit infantry as well as Arty that day and many many other FSB battles. Does receiving a few mortar rounds inside the wire of our compound count? The trucks grill was a few feet away should I crawl underneath or try to hide in the nearby jungle? If you fired a weapon in defense, outside the wire,, and your boots were on the ground in VN you are a COMBAT vet. These cookies ensure basic functionalities and security features of the website, anonymously. Numbers can always be manipulated. 4 Carl Dodd Former Police Officer Author has 18.5K answers and 25.3M answer views 10 mo But having a CIB does not exclude or diminish in any way the experiences or accomplishments of others, like you, and the wearer of the badge has no right to judge what any other man faced. Isolated atrocities committed by American Soldiers produced torrents If you served in any other places you are a Veteran, ERA is an embellishment of your service. We had it good compared to grunts..tdy pay, flight pay, combat pay plus side gigs. For a mile or so the road cut through the jungle like a tunnel; the vegetation brushing against the sides and roof hid what lurked in the shadows. It only had the National Defense ribbon on the cap. Infantry Division. he was wearing his VIETNAM ERA VETERAN cover. Lying on my back in the underbrush, watching the blue sky, bleeding on the jungle floor alone. Check out this post and see if you can figure this out. i think the definition should not be restricted by whether you wore khakis or como. Nevertheless, if my name was Tom, Dick, or Harry I would have perished, but I could not put my parents through the same ordeal as Aunt Palma and Uncle Frank. Bullets were flying everywhere, and the noise was tremendous. Not 499 days between dec 67 & april 68? (LogOut/ The VA researchers analyzed the death certificates of 21 states to create the 2010 national estimate for veterans from all age groups. Some idiot in DC decided to do this. Very devisive infighting among all the service members who served at a time when it was not popular. I recall combat pay (Hazard DutyPay) at $60 dollars a month. Combat Vets served in country. IF you didnt get any extra pay better have a good excuse .like to hear it. We grunts do hold chopper crews in the highest regard! (How Convenient), Hi. Spot on. Enjoy today's Memorial Day and please take time to "Remember". I rode river patrol boats from 1968-9 we were on the rivers but we were there 24hours a day days a week. Why do the vets who served during the Vietnam War era have to be so devisive? I was driving the OPs 3/4-ton, 4X4 truck down the main dirt highway from Camp Enari entering the Ville and Mark Stanley was a passenger in the cab. He was killed in action just a few months later. The definition of Combat Veteran is NOT if you have a CIB. How Many World War 2 Veterans Die Each Day? I was a merchant marine officer on cargo ships, american export lines, for three years, back and forth to viet nam. But a growing army of strangers is. Check your POW list. Various percentages of actual Vietnam Veterans is bothersome. Again, I see a jumbled view of jungle and sky, and vaguely see a solitary soldier standing over me. Nobody can bad-mouth Huey pilots and crews. Home Kent State University How Many Vietnam Veterans Are Still Alive In 2022? The book by Hal Moore & Joe Galloway We were soldiers once, and young describe what many of us experienced. Agent Orange is a Herdicide. He objected, and was assigned as an interpreter attached to the American Embassy in Sweden. Those of us who wear air crew wings probably saved your ass more than once. Air crews who flew over Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam had no Fox hole or ditch yo hid behind while delivering payload after payload to help destroy supplies heading towards those in the bush, while avoid withering anti-aircraft fire and missiles. Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. Should you have a question or comment about this article, then scroll down to the comment section below to leave your response. Combat Vets and Non Combat Vets. It was difficult for me to move. and for the most part, we had no weapons. in viet nam, because of the unions, they got more money. There are questions like this that are hard to answere as being true boots on ground. A veteran who served in the Vietnam War would be in their early 70s to late 90s today, depending on their birth year. These numbers were not included since these service members were far removed from combat experience and did not spend any amount of time in harms way. And your comment about Agent Orange shows that you have no understanding of how the chemical poisoned everyone who set foot in Vietnam. nearly every classmate from the academy served on some basis during the vn war. He now has a 100% disability as unemployable. I got angry at him even saying that he was a vet of the war. Once I was threatened with death if I mentioned NAM again. I was out of my earthly shell. AFAIC, anyone within the bounds of South Vietnam was on the ground. In or out of a compound or an LZ or anywhere else. No one paid any attention to them and this non-controversy continues. The Vietnam Veterans of America have cited that they will remain an organization until last man standing. He is absolutely obsessed with military and different men who have served, The definitive statistics come from the VAs Million Vietnam Vets database, which will continue until we are all gone. These cookies track visitors across websites and collect information to provide customized ads. The first advisors were sent in country much earlier than 1962. How Many Veterans Commit Suicide A Day? - Veteran Warrior Outreach Return to reality. In my mirror I saw its beam illuminate each and every particle of dust that my passing vehicle spewed into the air; thus creating a mobile, magical, camouflaged chamber of brightly dancing fairies shielding me from harm. Therefore there are a lot fewer combat veterans from Vietnam. 4-39th, 9th Div. According to the American War Library, as of February 28, 2019, it is estimated that approximately 610,000 Americans who served in land forces during the Vietnam War or in air missions over Vietnam between 1954 and 1975 are still alive to this day. 31 sets of brothers are on the Wall. I do not believe that the question of who is a Vietnam Veteran is that difficult Assignment to a unit stationed in country is 1 criterion, another is the number of days assigned and served in country Combat at sea of pilots from carriers and rescue crews that flew over the country and those downed I think that there are really 2 classes of Vietnam Veterans, combat and non-combat that is a more difficult designation to separate As a combat platoon Sgt engaged in several large battles and many smaller fire fights, nights being mortared with shells exploding in the trees above The VA needs to add one more medical anomaly, Chronic Butt Pucker for all combat veterans. I served until April 28, 1969 !!!!!!!!!!!! Operation Homecoming was completed on March 29, 1973, when the last of 591 U.S. prisoners were released and returned to the United States. Steve Needless to say, I set them straight about his lying BS, and moved out the next day. Combat Veterans know who they are, pretenders know that they are not.. Ive never seen so many people so full of shit trying to answer a question like how many Vietnam veterans are still alive today. Heres a fact: Jeffery Lynn Scheller, USN, born July 31, 1954 was Killed In Action on October 1, 1972. Mike. According to the Pentagons Defense Prisoner of War/Missing Personnel Office, there are currently 83,204 unaccounted for U.S. personnel, including 73,547 from World War II, 7,883 from the Korean War, 126 from the Cold War, 1,642 from the Vietnam War, and six from Iraq and other recent conflicts, including three Defense. One other thing I would like to know, when Jane Fonda was sitting on that anti aircraft gun in Hanoi did they let her try to use it. His Engineer company was tasked to fight as Infantry, and they did. I knew what life in-store for me in my recovery had- years of pain and disabilities while I waited for my next adventure. at DaNang If we came in they set up tents to sleep in and had a big blivet bag for a shower. Was an Armored Cav Platoon leader Nov 67-Mar 68 Lost 4 APCS 4 men in my platoon KIA 12 wounded I think I was in a little combat . I served in 67 69 & had stroke in 93 then heart attack in 2002 with 2d in 2004 . I was a grunt and shotgunner on convoys !!! it is branded on you. Well, the government 20 or 25 years later sent us, if asked, a ribbon, card, and metal saying we did. ONLY Vietnam Vets are separated into two categories. Les, in IMHO being a Vietnam Veteran has nothing to do with combat. 8,113,000 are still alive (May 2000) Post navigation In fact, the first two advisors (MAJ Dale Buis and MSG Chester Ovnand) killed by the enemy died in an attack on their base near Bien Hoa on July 8, 1959. We were sprayed every 2 weeks with Melithon (Insecticide) that was 96 percent pure. Look up the military definition of combat. Im still here after all the BS of AO has really messed up my life with illnesses, surgeries ect since 1975, noting problems while I was in Vietnam in 69, and confirmed. none more than the ERA Vets. I got the disability benefits at age 79. I meant any one that stepped foot in The veterans are a very important asset to the country. Change). The article states that The youngest Vietnam Veteran is aged in the late 60s today. The military stopped the. Nor, do they know about what is referred to as the last battle of the Vietnam war, which occurred on 15 May 1975, eight days after the legally defined end date of the Vietnam era; 7 May 1975. you tell me. It was also projected that, from here, 138,000 Vietnam veterans are expected to die each year. I served in Vietnam from Jul 68 to Jul 69. From what my son in law says (Apache gunship pilot) they also flew a tremendous number of combat hours everyday, And I know from what few stories he did tell (hes now deceased) they often had mortar rounds incoming. I am a solid 10. Could they be considered Vietnam veterans then? About 15 out of every 100 Vietnam veterans (15%) were currently diagnosed with PTSD when the most recent study of . i never saw them again, but i knew we had shared something that was filled with pride, sadness, and the passage of time. 1 How many American soldiers died in Vietnam in 1975? I remember that the minute we came around the coast and headed up for Vung Tau, as merchantmen on American Export LInes ships, we got a sizeable war zone increase in our pay. I would not believe the NYT. I was confused. Overall, the death rate of Vietnam veterans seems to be rather consistent if not better than other people their same age, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Performance cookies are used to understand and analyze the key performance indexes of the website which helps in delivering a better user experience for the visitors. we had a crew of about 42, spent weeks at anchor in vung tau or da nang. U failed to remember the last name on the Wall was in 1975. hello, If they reply that they do not talk about their experiences They are not Combat Veterans maybe not even Vietnam Veterans. The cookie is set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin and is used to store whether or not user has consented to the use of cookies. I dont know why we have to make this simple arithmetic drill so difficult. Apparently Infantry is the operative word. Was I counted each time or once? so the cia men who changed from suits were not vietnam veterams when they went into laos and cambodia? He got a letter from his wife telling him she was divorcing him and marrying his best friend. Stolen Valor the American Way! We all started getting heart attacks around the same time. take a look at my article titled a pale smoke google it . The site is owned and run by a crook and charlatan named (?) . Bob ONeal, Lt.Col. stay safe. These numbers have come about due to the extensive research of various mortality indexes and sources by the American War Library which concluded that about one-third of those who served in the Vietnam War are still alive today. Vietnam Vet_combat. How many Vietnam veterans have died from Agent Orange? as we end our lives we should never forget that each served, in some way. So, here well dive a little bit deeper into how many Vietnam veterans are estimated to still be alive based on various approximations and predictions. I flew as a crew chief / door gunner from dec 12 th 1965 till dec 15th 1967,I may not have had my boots on the ground out side the wire but we flew close air support , every time you grunts got your ass in a sling we were there to help you, i was on old B model gun ships low and slow ,I was shot down three times, so i dont think your cib means that much to me. A Co. 2/8th, First Cavalry, 1968-69. My name is Ananda. After 20 some years of filing claims and multiple appeals (DAV advocate,) have given up on the VA. Do I count as a real Vietnam vet? and by the way, they never got benefits after their time at sea. I was drafted and sent to Germany 66-68 because of the Vietnam War in the 4Armored Division. Combat veterans will share their experiences with other veterans especially combat veterans (CIB). A few people were killed. NO! And i can tell you , we made a lot of money. Findings are made available to the public in an Annual Report. Army Reserve: 189,500 Dec 1967 Dec 1968 & Jan 1969 Nov 1969. I was in 1st Battalion 26 th Infantry HMP 1st Infantry Division in 68 November 68 to January 69. What is the average age of Vietnam veteran in 2021? My 2.6 million figure refers to American vets. Even more telling is how many Vietnam combat veterans are still alive today? so in 2190 days.from today, lucky to be a Vietnam veteran alive. Do you by chance remember a Jim Blackshear? I KNOW MY STATS BECAUSE I WAS THE LONGEST SERVING MEMBER (20 YRS) on the New Jersey Agent Orange Commission, including four years as Chairman. I appreciate the fact that I Sam in the combat group that won the war against the communist rabble during their Tet Offensive in 1968. How many Vietnam veterans are dying everyday? The first US advisors that I can find evidence of arrived in country in 1955. Mark Stanley was gone. Separate war. If one in ten saw sustained combat, then there may be as little as 60,000 of us left! (Operation Ranch Hand) that were loaders and used no protection. In 1995 Vietnam released its official estimate of the number of people killed during the Vietnam War: as many as 2,000,000 civilians on both sides and some 1,100,000 North Vietnamese and Viet Cong fighters. I suppose we were rear echelon, but I dispute anyone calling us REMF. It should be duly noted that these numbers do not include the 2500 to 3000 US Air Force troops stationed in Guam, Thailand, and other countries that were involved in the Vietnam War effort. How many veterans die each day? Good for him! Agreed. My squad leaderSteve Cook wrote, Dont Cry for Us Saigon. He gives stats. It allows the website owner to implement or change the website's content in real-time. Ive often wondered how many of us are left. How Many Vietnam Veterans Are Still Alive In 2022? - CLJ they did not get metals. Having served two tours on the ground, as they say, I find it depressing. None of us could have done our job without the support of troops around the globe. Who is the oldest living Vietnam veteran? I began to think that was the excuse for NOT being in combat. But the bad news is that Charlie knew exactly where they were . 240 300 World. Active duty 70-71, Quang Tri, Khe Sahn, Danny. when we carried ordnance we had to accept 50 cal fire from the shore on the way to saigon. i said once if you walked , you worked. If he was at least in the Army, this might not work. Are we counted as two people or have they accounted for us already. Anyone who served during or because of The Vietnam War IS a Vietnam War Veteran. After Tet it was quiet. a few years ago i was flying from rome to possibly germany or holland on the way back to montreal. We dont forget, and resent the tail gating by those who, during the war, did all they could to avoid it, and now desperately hope others will conveniently forget this fact, and give them some of the respect they never earned. They are paying on Melathion settlements (Watch TV, and it as on 2 to 3% purity, used inside US) There are no living Veterans that I know of. I realized what control I had in the cosmos. was i a veteran by the numbers? Luck of the draw my twin that received a silver star got the luck of the draw made it home. The ERA Vets know perfectly well that they were neverNEVER..in Vietnam, and that this is nothing but a desperate attempt to gain the respect those men earned. One moment is eternity- the next may never!. Regardless of their MOS or the details of their service, veterans have more in common with each other than they have differences, and ALL deserve to be honored. For the are all Vietnam Vetersns.I was stationed. DamnIll be 76 in March. My Company was A Co, 5th Trans Bn, 101st Abn. Motherfucker? I had encountered a learning experience, and inspirational contact with the celestial. Tom, to me, the CIB says everything; the wearer is a soldier who has earned the right to it and deserves respect. I entered an L shaped ambush. Pop, POP POP. Vietnam Veterans by State 2023 - worldpopulationreview.com When you spend most of the time out in the Bad Lands, bad things happen. Here are some statistics on the veterans of the Vietnam War. My body, accompanied by my mind, was pitched out the right-side door, sliding between the seat and under the dashboard to land on the shoulder of the dirt road alone. Every grunt I know would say no. This is a reasonable number but you get very different notions of the death rate when you compare 800,000 to 2.7 million versus 800,000 out of 9.2 million. Combat veteran means far more than having a CIB. Defining Combat Veterans, tell us what number you give yourself, we have a controversy here with a candidate for Governor, he claims now that he is a combat veteran, but he told me in his campaign for the House seat he presently holds, that he was NOT a combat veteran. The U.S. military has estimated that between 200,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers died. Sgt. One count should be those Vietnam Veterans who had feet on the ground. Got the scars to prove it too, both physical and mental. BTW, Marys father was a Marine in Nam and died when she was only a few years old. Bien Hoa & Phu Bai, two badly polluted areas! It works only in coordination with the primary cookie. How Many Vietnam Veterans Are Still Alive? - The New York Times i sailed with some in vn at the end of the work lives. I saw plenty of people providing direct combat support to the effort in. It caused extreme political unrest and was widely protested. Antonia is a firm believer in the power of education, and she is passionate about helping students reach their full potential. How many WWII veterans die each day? NO, some who got to sleep in the same bed night after night, yet were low slow flying targets by day are NOT REMF. the man ahead of me had been in rome for a religious tour. The NOISE ringing in my ears, the torment, the muggy damn heat, and the distance echo of gunfire ALL STOPPED! Well again, nothing that you have posted tells the story that you were in Vietnam. All Lawyer adds is for 2 percent, do you think that this was a greater risk for Cancer. many US MILITARY PERSONNELL served in Afghanistan from the start to when the last GI got on the last plane/helicopter out. Through my blood-covered face, I could not distinguish whom! Agent Orange is impacting that timeline and those serving around the world were not affected by this wonderous life-robbing gift. The average ww ii vet was in combat 10 to 12 days. I was shot up more than a dozen times and shot down once. Age: 78. Ive reached the age of truth telling, and have grown sick of pretending, and giving trophies to the undeserving I saw good men die, and their loved ones dont deserve this dishonor any longer. There is a statistic that has been widely quoted in the veteran community that highlights an estimated 22 veterans a day are committing suicide. So, nearly 300,000 over the 14 years of their operations, a far cry above the 2500-3000 referenced in the article. 1,448 soldiers were killed on their last day in Vietnam. A cookie set by YouTube to measure bandwidth that determines whether the user gets the new or old player interface. I was the first male born to the Puccetti family after his death, so my parents received permission to name their son after Dante. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. It was what it was. I knew I was dying, but I struggled with all my might to stay alive. Do not consider yourself a 10, unless you are a 10. I am a Viet Nam combat veteran. 101st Airborne 25th Infantry 82nd Airborne 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team. Dave, I only spent one overnighter. The 9 million was the total number of people in the military during 64-75 . Waiting for a slight pause in the clamor in my ear, I decided to escape towards the cover of the Bush. So, where is the discrepancy in these numbers? You were in Combat!!! I struck a tree and rebounded into the open again still a sitting duck. You are certainly a Vietnam Vet, and I know the danger that you were in As an Infantry (CIB) Sgt I spent part of my second tour with the 97th Trans out of Cam Rahn Bay, they operated @28 LCUs hauling projectiles up those rivers, always a risky business. Estimating the number of suicides among Vietnam veterans Unconfirmed reports that 50,000 or more Vietnam veterans have committed suicide give the impression that these veterans are at exceedingly high risk of suicide compared with other veterans and nonveterans of the same age. How Many Vietnam Vets Die Each Day? - Answers How many ww2 vets left 2021? The last number of Viet Nam veterans alive today was 730,000, which would equate to around todays number of 610,000. My time stands still. This answer is: Even in this age of computers and accountability just goes to show ya ,people still cant Add or do Math . My sister found enough info to get her husbands ship re-classified to a Brown Water ship due to his operation of a river boat and also medical evac of Marines, while he was assigned to the flagship, the Newport News, Prior to that any sailor who served aboard the Newport News, that applied for disability connected with Agent Orange, was denied. The VVA Veteran boils it down to a totally different conclusion that the American War Library drew. The Truth About 22 Veteran Suicides A Day - Task & Purpose As anti-war vet , all these years later, I respect yall and your stories. i have read that only one in seven guys that went to Vietnam, were actually in combat. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. In January 1945, the Bn was attached to the 3d Infantry Division near the Colmar Pocket, south of The Bulge. So, when we talk about Vietnam vets who are living or dead, we should be talking STRICTLY about Vets who participated in the Vietnam War. One sapper shot off a whole magazine of armor piercing bullets at the drivers side windshield of the truck, and glass was flying in all directions. Im going with 2.9 and saying the person who wrote 9.2 has the seing disease whereas they see everything in reverse. An overwhelming number are buried by family and friends. 2.8 million tour because some guys just couldnt get enough!
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